Curse

Lhim · Apr 16, 2011, 12:00 PM // 12:00

Your team must really suck if you lose as a Kurzick at Fort Aspenwood.

Sk8tborderx · Apr 16, 2011, 12:08 PM // 12:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lhim

Your team must really suck if you lose as a Kurzick at Fort Aspenwood.

In general, players in FA are worse then RA. I don't know how they manage to pull it off but they do.

Hanok Odbrook · Apr 18, 2011, 12:51 PM // 12:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lhim

Your team must really suck if you lose as a Kurzick at Fort Aspenwood.

Well - maybe just not smart. I've been on plenty of teams that pretty much give up as soon as they see no monks in the group. What they don't realize is that all you have to do is constantly run amber in that case and always have one player in the base with a chunk ready to go as soon as the Green Gate is breached. I've won just as many matches on Kurz side without a single healer as with when the team plays smart.

Hanok

Fay Vert · Apr 19, 2011, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Remember, don't feed the trolls

RedStar · Apr 19, 2011, 01:07 PM // 13:07

If you lose as a Kurzick, it's because you asked for it. (Except for that one great luxon team that comes once every ages).

You think turtles are too powerful ? Take a ranger a kill the orange turtle before it even reaches the orange gate.
You think the luxon warriors are too powerful ? Really ? I don't think too many luxons would mind if they were removed : they glitch the turtle and if a single one of them is kept alive (by the kurzick not killing them), the turtle doesn't respawn...
You think monks are a trouble ? Roll a mesmer with the pvx build.
You think Gunther gets killed too quickly ? Roll a monk or a rit.
You have amber and the green gate is getting killed ? Wait for them to break it, and the moment it's down, repair it
...

If everyone did that on the kurzick side, they wouldn't have any problems

You can try and to the same thing for luxons but :
When a kurzick dies, he spawns 5 seconds away from Gunther, when a luxon dies he has to run for 30 seconds.

Luxon win in 90 seconds ? Use logic and don't open a gate when you see a red dot next to it.

Both team have there share of players that don't really know what to do or that have bad builds, but a bad build on kurzick side can always be useful, while a bad build on luxon is almost like having 7/8 players.

Missing HB · Apr 19, 2011, 03:02 PM // 15:02

Useless post. Theorical stuff does work when you got a proper team , but when it's random it's not at all the same you know...Arguments like this are such as " you usually get as many monks on kurzic side as one luxon one " .. Well if this was true , it would be true in RA too no?

It can help if you can make your team win alone, but that's not really the case here...

RedStar · Apr 19, 2011, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Quote:

Useless post.

Not sure if this was addressed to my previous but : the only thing theorical about it was the "bring a build to kill luxon monks". The rest were builds that no matter the situation would always be useful because they are useful against situations that are bound to happen (fighting a turtle, protecting NPCs, running amber).

Luxons can't bring a build that is made to counter a certain build a kurzick player would have due to random teams. Monks aren't always there, enchants aren't always used. Even bringing a monk can be bad on luxon side : too much monks and not enough damage can be a real problem and is often one.

Dervish Kid · Apr 20, 2011, 12:56 AM // 00:56

this is balanced. its the teams that make it seem unbalanced.

Mike Jack · Apr 20, 2011, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Nah.

10char

RedStar · Apr 20, 2011, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Quote:

this is balanced. its the teams that make it seem unbalanced.

The whole thing is clearly better for kurzicks.

-They rez 5 seconds away from the person they are supposed to protect and they have a portal that can bring them to the place where the battle takes place for the most time (in most games), Luxons rez 30 seconds away from both.
-They can repair a gate the second it is destroyed, Luxons need to wait for the whole squad to be killed.
-The kurzick NPCs are completely anti melee and the kurzick mesmers are anti casters. The luxon warriors are almost useless at protecting the turtle (and they aren't even troublesome, except for runners).
-Between the gates, if you are too close to the walls a caster can kill you and if you are too far a ranger can hit you.

Megera · Apr 20, 2011, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Dunno, FA seems "balanced", meaning that you can win or lose no matter on which side you play. It's more about your teammates and your opponents than about the map and the NPCs. I've played plenty on both sides.

Elnino · Apr 20, 2011, 03:31 AM // 03:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedStar

The whole thing is clearly better for kurzicks.

-They rez 5 seconds away from the person they are supposed to protect and they have a portal that can bring them to the place where the battle takes place for the most time (in most games), Luxons rez 30 seconds away from both.
-They can repair a gate the second it is destroyed, Luxons need to wait for the whole squad to be killed.
-The kurzick NPCs are completely anti melee and the kurzick mesmers are anti casters. The luxon warriors are almost useless at protecting the turtle (and they aren't even troublesome, except for runners).
-Between the gates, if you are too close to the walls a caster can kill you and if you are too far a ranger can hit you.

All of these problems can be solved by monks. So yea, it's the players that cause the imbalance.

Think about it:
If the kurzicks have no healers - disadvantage
If the kurzicks don't run amber - disadvantage
If the luxons let the turtles die - disadvantage
If the luxons have healers - advantage
If the luxons bring bad builds - disadvantage
If the kurzicks bring bad builds - disadvantage

I can go on and on. All the advantages and disadvantages for both sides (except bugs) are a result of the players.

RedStar · Apr 20, 2011, 04:11 AM // 04:11

Quote:

All of these problems can be solved by monks.

Really ?
A monk has an effect on the distance each side has to run to get to the battlefield ? (except of course, keeping people alive and well it's not that easy when 7 persons are running around)
A luxon monk can prevent kurzicks from chain repairing the green gates ?

What I talked about are things that will always be true because they are designed like that. I didn't get into builds.

Of course having a useful build a having someone that makes little red bar goes up is something good.
But having too many persons that make those bar goes up and not enough that make the enemies bar goes down isn't an advantage for the luxons.
And if you have a bad build while playing kurzick, you can always somewhat be useful by at least stalling the turtle.

Of course, this isn't to say that winning on luxon side is totally impossible unless you are facing a team with bad builds (or players that don't know what to do), but that kurzicks have a real advantage in FA.

On kurzick side you will always have to protect Gunther and on luxon side you will always have to kill him.
If you are tired of losing on kurzick side, play a healer.
If you are tired of losing on luxon side, change your build or take a break.

There will always be someone that'll say "take anti enchants and anti healing spells" : many monks and rits don't use enchantments and many of them carry more than one hex removal.

FoxBat · Apr 20, 2011, 07:33 AM // 07:33

Yeah in other words

Best luxon team = a mix of disruption, monk killers, npc nukes, and healers.
Best kurzick team = as many healers as possible. Often 2 is enough.

Simply running defensive stuff on kurzick side dramatically improves your win chances, because defense is the only thing kurzicks need to win. Luxons need a good mix so it's much more of a crapshoot no matter what role you play.

Hanok Odbrook · Apr 20, 2011, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Monks don't save all. As I have said before, I've been on Kurzick winning teams that had no monks, and I have been on Luxon winning teams when the Kurz had two or three monks.
It's been said before, and I'll say it again - I don't see the imbalance in the mish, I see it in the players who are playing at the time.

Hanok

Mike Jack · Apr 20, 2011, 07:45 PM // 19:45

I heard personal, anecdotal evidence was good evidence.

I've played solo on my wammo build consisting of Frenzy and Unyielding Aura (PvP) when 7 people ragequitted against Kurzick syncers with multiple defensive builds meshed and synergized perfectly and then I proceeded to solo'd Gunther in under 15%.

Kurzicks clearly have a huge disadvantage since they lost obviously. After all, its only my experiences that count.

RedStar · Apr 21, 2011, 05:38 AM // 05:38

Quote:

I've been on Kurzick winning teams that had no monks, and I have been on Luxon winning teams when the Kurz had two or three monks.

And that can tell us that when the Kurzicks won, the Luxons had a team of 8 players that didn't know what to do, when they lost, the Luxons had a team of 8 players that did know what to do while some Kurzicks didn't.
A monk, isn't always healing. Some monks carry RoJ (on both sides).

A great evidence of the fact that this map is advantageous for Kurzicks : look how many people are waiting on the kurzick's side and look how many are on the luxons' side. Would there be such a gap if there wasn't an advantage for one side ?

Azazello · Apr 21, 2011, 06:49 AM // 06:49

Bluntly, you're beyond terrible if you're unable to recognise the massive advantage defense has in FA. I can't tell if you're trolling, you seem legitimately confused enough to think that offense has an advantage.

FoxBat · Apr 21, 2011, 06:52 AM // 06:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

Monks don't save all. As I have said before, I've been on Kurzick winning teams that had no monks, and I have been on Luxon winning teams when the Kurz had two or three monks.

And I've obs'd top 100 playing honor balanced roll #800 on triple derv. Doesn't mean anything.

All of that amber running can be done fine by healers that use dash. Kurzick can play something other than healer but they are just gimping themselves in doing so. The more defense you have the better, as killing luxons is not ever a required part of the mission. In other formats, excessive defense earns you draws or very slow defeats. In FA, it wins.

thedeadlyassassin · Apr 21, 2011, 07:31 AM // 07:31

FA is almost clearly one sided. You need a group of players that know what they're doing on the Luxon side in order to win, and they need to be better than the Kurzicks. Everytime I roll FA, I have no monk. When I roll a monk, I have no DPS. It always turns out that way.

The fact that both the gate keepers are monks, and that you can put every enchantment/heal on Gunther makes it ridiculous. And, once you finally kill the 3 monks, they spawn again in 5 seconds. All it takes is 3 monks on the Kurzick side to win in reality, and that generally is the case.

The map, as been said, is balanced, but the way people play is not. People know that all it really takes is a monk to heal Gunther and it's basically a free win, so they roll monk. And yes, the turtles do get stuck, a LOT, and Luxons really hardly ever have any monks, and when they do, the DPS from the turtles and the warriors doesn't make up for the amount players are getting healed.

This map is heavily favored by the Kurzick side with the way players play.

Maybe they could fix this by putting the gate masters outside of the green gate. All it takes is a sneaky assassin or someone to take out the 2 rangers and bring in amber to repair a gate, instantly turning the tides of the battle. Also, make a new area for Kurzick players to spawn. They have teleports to anywhere on the map basically and spawn next to gunther, so killing the monks just gives you about 5 seconds of freedom to kill him, and a lot of the time that's not enough.